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Conversations between Jesus and Judas

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GRM 174.16 · Volume 3

The Gospel as revealed to me

Quotation

The Iscariot is pensive in a corner. Jesus calls him three times, but he does not hear. At last he turns around: «Do You want me. Master?» he asks.

«Yes, go and take your food and help your companions.»

«I am not hungry. Neither are You.»

«Neither am I, but for different reasons. Are you upset, Judas?»

«No, Master. I’m tired…»

«We are now going to the lake and then to Judaea, Judas. To your mother’s, as I promised you…»

Judas cheers up. «Are You really coming only with me?»

«Of course. Love Me, Judas. I would like My love to be such in you as to preserve you from all evil.»

«Master… I am a man. I am not an angel. At times I feel tired. Is it a sin to feel the need of sleep?»

«No, providing you sleep on My chest. Look over there how happy the people are and how beautiful the scenery is from here. All Judaea must be lovely in springtime.»

«Most beautiful, Master. But spring, there, on the mountains, which are higher than here, is later. But there are beautiful flowers. The apple-orchards are magnificent. Mine, which is looked after by my mother, is one of the most beautiful ones. And when she moves about in it, with the doves following her to get some corn, believe me, it is a sight that soothes your heart.»

«I believe you. If My Mother is not too tired, I would like to take Her to see yours. They would love each other, because they are both good.»

Judas, drawn by this idea, cheers up and forgetting that «he was not hungry and he was tired» runs happily to his companions and tall as he is, he undoes the highest knots without any trouble and eats his bread and olives, as happy as a child.

Jesus looks at him pitifully and then goes towards the apostles.

Detail

Mary Magdalene burst onto the Mount of Beatitudes. At the time, she was a great sinner. Following a speech by Jesus, she left in a rage. After her intervention, Jesus goes to see Judas.

Annotation

I promised you: Reminder of the promise made to Judas in EMV 139.1.

Only, over there on the mountains, which are higher than here, spring comes later. Exactly: the difference is 3 or 4 weeks.

If my Mother isn't too tired, I'd be happy to take her to yours. They'd love each other, because they're both good people. Jesus wants to associate the two mothers who will have so much to suffer.

GRM 180.7-8 · Volume 3

The Gospel as revealed to me

Quotation

«We arrived at noon and he had been captured at daybreak…»

«Where? How? By whom? In his cave?» they all ask, they all want to know.

«He was betrayed!… They used Your name to betray him!» «How horrible! Who did that?» they all shout.

And John shuddering, whispering in a low voice what not even the air should hear, states: «It was one of his disciples…»

The confusion is at its highest pitch. Some curse, some weep, some are petrified with astonishment.

180.8

John throws his arms around Jesus’ neck and shouts: «I am afraid for You!… for You! The saints have their traitors who sell themselves for gold and for fear of the mighty ones, yearning for reward, obeying Satan. For thousands of things! Oh! Jesus! Jesus! How dreadful! My first master! My John who gave me to You!»

«It is all right! Do not worry! Nothing will happen to Me for the time being.»

«But later? What will happen later? I look at myself, at these… I am afraid of everybody, also of myself. Will one of us be Your traitor?…»

«Are you mad? And do you think that we would not tear him to pieces?» shouts Peter.

And the Iscariot: «Oh! You really are mad! It will never be I! But if I should feel so weak as to eventually become so, I would kill myself. Better than be the murderer of God.»

Jesus frees Himself from John’s grip, shakes Judas violently saying: «Do not swear! Nothing can make you weak, unless you want! And if that should happen, make sure you weep for it, and do not commit another crime in addition to deicide. He becomes weak who cuts off his vital link with God.»

Detail

John recounts the arrest of John the Baptist.

GRM 195.2-3 · Volume 3

The Gospel as revealed to me

Quotation

«Jesus is God.»

«I know, and I believe it. More than you do. Because I have revived through His work, you have not. No matter how good He is, He is still God, and I, a poor wretch dare not treat Him with familiarity as you do. My soul speaks to Him… my lips dare not. My soul does, and I think that He perceives it weeping out of gratitude and repentant love.»

195.2 «That is true, John. I do perceive your soul.» Jesus comes into the conversation of the two. Judas blushes with shame, the man of Endor with joy. «I perceive your soul, that is true. And I perceive also the work of your mind. What you said is correct. When you have been formed in Me, your experience as a teacher and a diligent pupil will be of great help to you. Speak, do speak, also to yourself.»

«Once, Master, not long ago, you told me that it is wrong to speak to one’s ego» remarks Judas insolently.

«That is true, I did. But that was because you were grumbling with your ego. This man is not grumbling, he is meditating, and for a good purpose. He is not doing anything wrong.»

«In brief, I am wrong!» Judas is aggressive.

«No, your heart is impatient. But the weather cannot be always good. Farmers want rain. It is charity to pray that it may rain. And this is also charity. But look, there is a beautiful rainbow forming an arch from Ataroth to Ramah. We are already beyond Ataroth, we have passed the large sad valley, and here the country is cultivated and pleasant under the sun, which is breaking through the clouds. When we are in Ramah we shall be thirty-six stadia from Jerusalem. We shall see the Holy City again after that hill, which is the place of the horrid lewd crime committed by the men of Gibeah. What a terrible thing is the concupiscence of the flesh, Judas…»

Judas does not reply, instead he delays splashing angrily in the puddles.

Detail

Judas speaks to John of Endor.

Annotation

- That's right, I said it. In EMV 183.1.

Gibeah or Guibeah: In the days of the judges, an old man invited a Levite from Ephraim and his concubine to lodge with him for the night. Shortly afterwards, men from Gibeah, scoundrels, surrounded the house, demanding that the Levite be handed over to them so they could have relations with him. The old man offered them his daughter, but they refused. The Levite gave them his concubine. They abused her all night, so much so that she died in the morning. Pieces of her body were sent to the tribes of Israel as a token of infamy (Judges 19:15-30). As the tribe of Benjamin sided with the guilty men of Gibeah, the other tribes went to war with them. Twice, they suffered heavy losses before finally defeating the Benjaminites and delivering Gibeah to the fire (Judges 20).

Judges 19, 10-30

Jg 19, 10-30 : The husband did not consent to spend the night; he got up and left. He came as far as Jebus, which is Jerusalem, with the two pack donkeys and his concubine. By the time they were near Jebus, it was very dark. So the servant said to his master, "Come, please, let us turn aside to this city of the Jebusites, and spend the night there." His master replied, "We will not turn aside to a foreign city, where there are no children of Israel; we will go as far as Gibeah." again he said to his servant, "Come, let us try to reach one of these places to spend the night, either Gibeah or Ramah." They walked on, and the sun set when they were near Gabaa, which belongs to Benjamin. They turned this way, to spend the night at Gabaa.

When the Levite entered, he stopped in the town square, and there was no one to receive them into his house to spend the night. 16But, behold, an old man returned in the evening from working in the field; he was a man of the hill-country of Ephraim, who sojourned in Gibeah, and the people of the place were Benjamites. When he looked up, he saw the traveler in the town square, and the old man said, "Where are you going and from where have you come?" He replied, "We are going from Bethlehem of Judah to the end of the mountain of Ephraim, where I come from. I had been to Bethlehem of Judah, and now I am going to Yahweh's house, and there is no one to receive me in his house. However, we have straw and fodder for our donkeys, and also bread and wine for me, for your maid and for the young man who is with your servants; we lack nothing." The old man said, "Peace be with you! Only I will provide for all your needs; but don't spend the night in the square." He let him into his house, and gave fodder to the donkeys; the travelers washed their feet, then ate and drank.

While they were gladdening their hearts, behold, men from the city, perverse people, surrounded the house and, knocking loudly at the door, they said to the old man, master of the house, "Bring out the man who came into your house, so that we may know him." The master of the house went out to them and said, "No, my brothers, please don't do evil; since this man has entered my house, don't commit this infamy. Here is my daughter, who is a virgin, and her concubine; I will bring them out to you, and you shall do violence to them and treat them as you please; but do not commit such an infamous deed upon this man." The men would not listen. So the man took his concubine and brought her outside. They got to know her and abused her all night until morning, then sent her away at dawn.

Towards morning, the woman fell at the door of her husband's house, and stayed there until daylight. Her husband got up in the morning and, having opened the door of the house, went out to continue his journey. And behold, the woman, his concubine, was lying at the entrance of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, "Get up and let's get out of here." But no one answered. So the husband put her on his donkey and set off for his home.

When he got home, he took a knife and, seizing his concubine, cut her limb from limb into twelve pieces, and sent her throughout the land of Israel. All who saw this said, "Nothing like this has ever happened or been seen since the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt to this day; ponder it, consult and pronounce."

GRM 202.1-4 · Volume 3

The Gospel as revealed to me

Quotation

It is the eve of Passover. Jesus is alone with His apostles, because the women have not joined the group, and He is waiting for Peter, who has taken the lamb of Passover to be sacrificed. While they are waiting and Jesus is speaking to Marjiam of Solomon, Judas crosses the large yard. He is with a group of young men speaking, gesticulating ostentatiously and assuming an inspired attitude. He shakes his mantle continuously, then drapes it round himself posing skilfully. I do not think that Cicero looked so stately when delivering his orations…

«Look, Judas is over there!» says Thaddeus.

«He is with a group of saforim» remarks Philip.

And Thomas says: «I am going to hear what he is saying» and he runs away before Jesus may express a foreseeable «don’t».

Oh! Jesus’ countenance! A countenance of suffering and of severe judgement. Marjiam, who was looking at Him while He was speaking kindly and somewhat sadly of the great king of Israel, notices, the sudden change, is almost frightened by it and shakes Jesus’ hand to call Him back to His senses exclaiming: «Don’t look! Don’t look! Look at me, for I love You.»…

202.2

Thomas is successful in reaching Judas without being seen by him and follows him for a few steps. I do not know what he hears, but I know that he bursts into a sudden thundering exclamation. which causes many people to turn around, and in particular Judas, who becomes livid with rage: «How many rabbis there are in Israel! I congratulate you, new light of wisdom!»

«I am not a flint-stone. I am a sponge. And I absorb. And when the desire of those starving for wisdom demands it, I squeeze out all my juices of life to give them…» Judas is pompous and contemptuous.

«You sound like a perfect echo. But an echo can only exist, if it is near the Voice. Otherwise it fades away, my friend. You seem to be going away from it. He is over there. Are you not coming?»

Judas changes colour, with the rancorous disgusting countenance of his worst moments. But he controls himself. He says: «Goodbye, my friends. Here I am with you, Thomas, my dear friend. Let us go to the Master at once. I did not know that He was here in the Temple. If I had known, I would have looked for Him» and he clasps Thomas’ shoulders with his arm, as if he were very fond of him.

But Thomas, who is placid but not foolish, is not deceived by such protestations… and asks rather astutely: «What? Don’t you know that it is Passover? And do you think that the Master is not faithful to the Law?»

«Oh! Never on your life! But last year He went about, and spoke… I remember this very day. He attracted me by means of His royal authoritativeness… Now… He looks to me like one who has lost vigour. Don’t you think so?»

«No, I don’t. I think He looks like one who has lost esteem.»

«Yes, in His mission, you are quite right.»

«No. You have misunderstood. He has lost men’s esteem. And you are one of those responsible for that. Shame on you!» Thomas no longer smiles. He is serious and his words lash Judas like a whip.

«Watch how you speak!» threatens the Iscariot.

«Watch how you behave. We are two Jews here, with no witnesses. And that is why I am speaking to you. And I say once again: “Shame on you!”. And now be quiet. Don’t feign tragedy and don’t start lamenting, otherwise I will speak in front of everybody.

202.3

There is the Master and your companions. Control yourself.»

«Peace to You, Master…»

«Peace to you, Judas of Simon.»

«It is a great pleasure for me to find You here… I would like to speak to You…»

«Do so.»

«You know… I wanted to tell You… Can You not listen to me aside?»

«You are among your companions.»

«But I wanted You only.»

«At Bethany I am alone with those who want Me and look for Me, but you do not look for Me. You avoid Me…»

«No, Master. You cannot say that.»

«Why did you offend Simon and Me yesterday, and Joseph of Arimathea, your companions and My Mother and the other women as well?»

«I did? But I did not see you!»

«You did not want to see us. Why did you not come, as we had arranged, to bless the Lord because of an innocent child who was being accepted by the Law? Tell Me! You did not even feel the need to inform us that you were not coming.»

«There is my father!» shouts Marjiam who sees Peter coming back with his lamb, which has been slaughtered, eviscerated and wrapped once again in its skin. «Oh! Micah and the others are with him! I am going, can I go and meet them and hear of my old father?»

«Yes, son, go» says Jesus caressing him. And touching John of Endor on his shoulder, he says to him: «Please, go with him and… keep them there for a little while.» And He addresses Judas once again: «Tell Me! I am waiting for your reply.»

«Master… a sudden obligation… an unbreakable one… I was very sorry… But…»

«But was there not one person in Jerusalem who could bring your justification, supposing you had one? And even that would have been a fault. I remind you that recently a man did not bury his father to follow Me, and that these brothers of Mine left their father’s house, amongst imprecations, to follow Me, and that Simon and Thomas, and Andrew, James, John, Philip and Nathanael with them, left their families and Simon Cananean left his wealth to give it to Me and Matthew his sins to follow Me. And I could go on mentioning one hundred more names. There are people who leave their lives, their very lives, to follow Me to the Kingdom of Heaven. But since you are so selfish, at least be polite. You have no charity, at least be courtly. Since you like them, imitate the false Pharisees who betray Me, who betray us behaving like well-bred people. It was your duty to be free to be with us yesterday, so as not to offend Peter, for whom I demand respect from everybody. But if you had at least sent notice…»

«I made a mistake.

202.4

But now I was coming to You on purpose, to tell You that for the same reason I cannot come tomorrow. You know… I have friends of my father and…»

«That is enough. Go with them. Goodbye.»

«Master… are You angry with me? You told me that You would act as my father… I am a reckless son, but a father forgives…»

«I forgive you. But go away. Do not keep your father’s friends waiting, as I do not keep waiting the friends of holy Jonah .»

«When are You leaving Bethany?»

«At the end of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Goodbye.»

Jesus turns around and goes towards the peasants who are in an ecstasy over Marjiam who is so changed. He takes a few steps then stops because of Thomas’ remark: «By Jehovah! He wanted to see in You the authoritativeness of a King! He got what he wanted!…»

«I beg you all to forget the incident, as I am striving to forget it. I order you to make no mention of it to Simon of Jonah, John of Endor and the little one. For reasons which you can easily understand, it is better not to grieve or scandalise those three. And no word about it at Bethany, with the women. My Mother is there, do not forget it.»

«Do not be concerned, Master.»

«We will do all we can to make amends.»

«And to comfort You» they all say.

«Thank you…»

Annotation

Jesus tells the child about Solomon: It's probably King Solomon.

He is with a group of saforim. Saforim (sopherîms): scribes.

I won't keep the friends of the holy Jonah waiting any longer. Jonah of Esdrelon.

By Jéovêh! He wanted to see you with your royal violence! Geovà in the original text. See the pronunciation of the divine name.

GRM 206.15-17 · Volume 3

The Gospel as revealed to me

Quotation

Lazarus congratulates Jesus. He says: «Oh! I am sorry to see You go away. But I am happier than I would have been, had I seen You go away the day before yesterday!»

«Why, Lazarus?»

«Because You looked so tired and sad… You did not speak, and You hardly ever smiled… Yesterday and today You have become once again my kind holy Master, and that makes me so happy…»

«I was so even if I was quiet…»

«You were. But You are serenity and word. That is what we want from You. We drink our strength at those sources. And now those sources seemed to be dried up. Our thirst was painful… You see that also the Gentiles are amazed, and they have come looking for them…»

The Iscariot, whom John of Zebedee had approached, dares to speak: «Of course, they also inquired of me… Because I was very often at the Antonia, hoping to see You.»

«You knew where I was» replies Jesus briefly.

«I did. But I was hoping You would not disappoint those who were expecting You. Also the Romans were disappointed. I do not know why You behaved like that…»

«And you are asking Me? Are you not aware of the humours of the Sanhedrin, of the Pharisees, and of others as well, with regards to Me?»

«What? Were You afraid?»

«I was disgusted.

206.16

Last year, when I was alone — all by Myself against the whole world, which did not even know whether I was a prophet — I bore evidence that I was not afraid. And you were a conquest of that audacity of Mine. I spoke openly against a whole world of howlers; I caused the voice of God to be heard by a people who had forgotten it; I cleansed the House of God of the material filth in it, without any hope of purifying it of the more serious moral filth nesting in it, because I am not unaware of the future of men. But I had to do My duty, because of My zeal for the House of the Eternal Lord, which had been converted into a place where swindlers, usurers and thieves bawled, and I did it to arouse from their torpor those whom centuries of priests’ carelessness had caused to fall into spiritual lethargy. It was a cry to gather My people and take them to God… This year I have come back… And I saw that the Temple is still the same… it is even worse. It is no longer a den of thieves, but a place of conspiracy, it will later become the centre of Crime, then a brothel and finally it will be destroyed by a power greater than Samson’s, crushing a caste unworthy of being called holy. It is useless to speak in that place, where, I would remind you, I was forbidden to speak. Faithless people, whose poisoned leaders dare to forbid the Word of God to speak in His House! I was forbidden. I was silent for the sake of the least ones. It is not yet time to kill Me. Too many people are in need of Me, and My apostles are not yet strong enough to take on their arms My off-spring: the World. Do not weep, Mother, forgive, good Mother, Your Son’s need to tell those, who wish to or may deceive themselves, the truth that I know… I will be silent… But woe to those who cause God to be silent!… Mother, Marjiam, do not weep!… Please. Let no one weep.»

But in actual fact they are all weeping more or less bitterly.

Judas, as white as death in his striped red and yellow robe, dares still to speak, in a moaning ridiculous voice: «Believe me, Master, that I am amazed and grieved… I do not know what You mean… I know nothing… It is true that I have not seen anyone of the Temple. I have broken off contacts with everybody… But if You say so it must be true…»

«Judas!… You have not seen Sadoc either?»

Judas bends his head grumbling: «He is a friend. I met him as such, not as one of the Temple…»

Jesus does not reply to him. He turns to Isaac and John of Endor, to whom He gives more advice concerning their work.

Meanwhile the women comfort Mary Who is weeping and the boy who is weeping seeing Mary weep.

GRM 210.4-6 · Volume 3

The Gospel as revealed to me

Quotation

«Father Abraham, help me to bear this in patience!!! And in what do you think the Master prefers others to you?»

«Do you not see that even now? When it was time to leave Bethzur, after stopping to teach three shepherds who could have very well been taught by Isaac, whom does He leave with His mother? Me? you? No. He leaves Simon. An old man who can hardly speak!…»

«But the little he says is always said right» retorts Thomas, who is now alone because the women and Andrew have gone away and are walking fast in front of them as if they wished to get past a stretch of the road where the sun is very warm.

210.5

The two apostles have become so excited that they do not hear Jesus coming, because the noise of His footsteps is completely muffled by the dust of the road. But if He makes no noise, the two are shouting as loud as ten people and Jesus can hear. Behind Him there are Peter, Matthew, the two cousins of the Lord, Philip and Bartholomew and the two sons of Zebedee with Marjiam between them.

Jesus says: «You are right, Thomas. Simon speaks little, but the little he says is always right. His mind is placid and his heart honest. And above all he has a great goodwill. That is why I left him with My Mother. He is a true reliable man and at the same time knows how to live, he has suffered and is old. Therefore – I am saying this because I suppose there is someone who thinks My choice was unfair – therefore he was the most suitable to remain. Judas, I could not allow My Mother to be left alone near a poor woman who is still ill. And it was just that I should leave Her. My Mother will complete the work that I started. But I could not leave Her with My brothers, or with Andrew, James or John, or with you. If you do not understand the reason, I do not know what to say…»

«Because She is Your Mother, She is young, beautiful, and people…»

«No! People will always have filth in their thoughts, on their lips and hands and particularly in their hearts, dishonest people who see their sentiments in everybody else; but I am not concerned with their mud. It falls off by itself, when it is dry. But I preferred Simon because he is old and he would not remind the desolate woman too much of her dead sons. You young men would have recalled them with your youth… Simon knows how to watch without being noticed, he never demands anything, he understands and can control himself. I could have taken Peter. Who would be better than he near My Mother? But he is still too impulsive. You know that I tell him openly, and he takes no offence. Peter is sincere, and he loves sincerity even to his own detriment. I could have taken Nathanael. But he has never been to Judaea before. Simon instead knows the country well and he will be valuable in bringing My Mother to Kerioth. He knows where your country house and the town house are and he will not…»

210.6

«But… Master!… But is Your Mother really coming to mine?»

«We said so. And when you say something, you do it. We shall proceed slowly, stopping to evangelize these villages. Do you not want Me to evangelize Your Judaea?»

«Of course, Master!… But I believed… I thought… »

«Above all you were causing yourself a lot of trouble through your own imagination. By the second phase of the moon of Sivan we shall all be at your mother’s. We, that is also My Mother and Simon. For the time being She is evangelizing Bethzur, a Judaean town, as Johanna is evangelizing Jerusalem with the assistance of a girl and a priest who was previously a leper, as Lazarus with Martha and old Ishmael are evangelizing Bethany, as Juttah is evangelized by Sarah and I am sure that your mother speaks of the Messiah at Kerioth, You cannot certainly say that I have left Judaea without voices. On the contrary, although it is more narrow-minded and stubborn than any other region, I have given it the sweetest voices, the voices of women, beside those of Isaac, a holy man, and of Lazarus, a friend of Mine. A woman knows how to use words with the subtle art of a woman, a mistress in leading souls to where she wants. Are you not speaking any more? Why are you almost weeping, you big moody boy? What is the use of poisoning yourself with shadows? Have you still any reason to be upset? Tell Me! Speak up…»

«I am bad… and You are so good. Your goodness always strikes me, because it is always so fresh and so new… I… I can never tell when I am going to find it on my way.»

«You are right. It is not possible for you to know. Because it is neither fresh nor new. It is eternal, Judas. It is omnipresent, Judas…»

Detail

Judas and Thomas quarrel and the Iscariot blames Jesus for leaving the Virgin Mary in Bet-Çur.

Annotation

On the second quarter of the Ziv moon, we'll all be at your mother's house: Ziv corresponds to April/May.

Jeanne evangelizes Jerusalem and with her a young girl and a priest: this is John the priest and Annalia. Cf. EMV 199.4-5 and EMV 199.6.